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Bertrand Russell, January 1970, relevant today (Public Board)

by ,ndo, Certifiable!, Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 03:52 (24 days ago)

The Vietnamese who have endured years of American heavy bombing have responded not by capitulation but by shooting down more enemy aircraft. In 1940 my own fellow countrymen resisted Hitler’s bombing raids with unprecedented unity and determination.

For this reason, the present Israeli attacks will fail in their essential purpose, but at the same time they must be condemned vigorously throughout the world.

The development of the crisis in the Middle East is both dangerous and instructive. For over 20 years Israel has expanded by force of arms. After every stage in this expansion Israel has appealed to “reason” and has suggested “negotiations”.

This is the traditional role of the imperial power, because it wishes to consolidate with the least difficulty what it has already taken by violence. Every new conquest becomes the new basis of the proposed negotiation from strength, which ignores the injustice of the previous aggression.

The aggression committed by Israel must be condemned, not only because no state has the right to annexe foreign territory, but because every expansion is an experiment to discover how much more aggression the world will tolerate.

The refugees who surround Palestine in their hundreds of thousands were described recently by the Washington journalist I.F. Stone as “the moral millstone around the neck of world Jewry.”

Many of the refugees are now well into the third decade of their precarious existence in temporary settlements. The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was “given” by a foreign Power to another people for the creation of a new State. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless.

With every new conflict their number have increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty? It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict.

No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East.

We are frequently told that we must sympathize with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. I see in this suggestion no reason to perpetuate any suffering.

What Israel is doing today cannot be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy. Not only does Israel condemn a vast number of refugees to misery; not only are many Arabs under occupation condemned to military rule; but also Israel condemns the Arab nations only recently emerging from colonial status, to continued impoverishment as military demands take precedence over national development.

All who want to see an end to bloodshed in the Middle East must ensure that any settlement does not contain the seeds of future conflict. Justice requires that the first step towards a settlement must be an Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied in June, 1967. A new world campaign is needed to help bring justice to the long-suffering people of the Middle East.

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The argument against Zionism

by Cornpop Sutton ⌂, A bad bad dude who makes good shine., Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 09:48 (24 days ago) @ ,ndo
edited by Cornpop Sutton, Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 14:40

You stated in one post recently that the founding of Israel as a physical country in its present location was a bad idea.

I now suddenly get it. Israel's re-establishment was foretold in the bible and it happened over a lifetime ago, 70+ years ago, so we now take it for granted as a given.

The fact that it was foretold and that it made Christian evangelicals go ga-ga doesn't make it a good thing. It set the stage for endless wars.

The planet and mankind would be better off without an Israel. It may be tiny, outnumbered, and surrounded. Israel has negative effects that far outweigh its size.

It's still a bad idea.

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The argument against Zionism

by ,ndo, Certifiable!, Friday, November 10, 2023, 17:50 (22 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton

Do you have the chapters for this foretelling? I'd like to read them.

The argument against Zionism

by Surly Sysop, Monday, November 13, 2023, 22:49 (18 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton

Many countries on Earth have made the Jews feel unwelcome. Europe after WW2, but also the Middle East. Having their own nation was supposed to be the thing that guarantees their security.

Unfortunately they decided to build this nation in the middle of a bunch of Arabs who would rather die than live next to them.

What can ya do?

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Idea

by Cornpop Sutton ⌂, A bad bad dude who makes good shine., Monday, November 13, 2023, 23:13 (18 days ago) @ Surly Sysop

1) Build time machine.

2) Send our times' greatest negotiator to travel back to 1945 or so. Could be Henry Kissinger (accompanied by a nursing staff), could be Trump....

3) Convince TPTB to construct "New Israel" inside Palm Beach County. Capital, Boca Raton. :-D Oy! Real estate was probably cheap there then.

I rather believe any more that the entire point of Israel's current location as re-founded in 1948 was to provoke endless confrontations and wars.

Idea

by Surly Sysop, Monday, November 13, 2023, 23:30 (18 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton

I'm of the opinion there's never a grand plan.

The fledgling new UN was probably excited to solve All World Problems and thought they'd bang out this Middle East thing. British Palestine? That won't do, let them have their own state. Also let the Jews have their own state nearby, not any bigger. Job well done.

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Welcome fresh meat/new blood!

by Cornpop Sutton ⌂, A bad bad dude who makes good shine., Monday, November 13, 2023, 23:37 (18 days ago) @ Surly Sysop

I'm of the opinion there's never a grand plan.

The fledgling new UN was probably excited to solve All World Problems and thought they'd bang out this Middle East thing. British Palestine? That won't do, let them have their own state. Also let the Jews have their own state nearby, not any bigger. Job well done.

Damn, based, dude.

(That's why you needed the time machine.)

Wait, I just registered you. I think I was drunk at the time. Or caffeinated.

In any event, welcome!

(I do think that an alt-history treatment of New Israel of Palm Beach would be freakin' hilarious. The jokes would write themselves.)

Welcome fresh meat/new blood!

by Surly Sysop, Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 10:49 (18 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton

The Israeli Jewish state of Florida is DLC I'd happily pay for.

(Thanks for the add! Not sure what this place is!)

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Welcome fresh meat/new blood!

by Cornpop Sutton ⌂, A bad bad dude who makes good shine., Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 11:17 (18 days ago) @ Surly Sysop

^ It's a f***ing mess is what it is. :-D No theme, no purpose, just old timers chat. Like any end stage forum.

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The Argument For Zionism

by Cornpop Sutton ⌂, A bad bad dude who makes good shine., Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 14:47 (24 days ago) @ ,ndo
edited by Cornpop Sutton, Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 14:54

Before Israel was founded in 1948, Jews basically had no one homeland. You had tribes and pockets of Jews scattered around the world.

Each pocket of Jews was subject, as history shows plainly, to discrimination and far worse right up to slavery and genocide.

Jews before Israel were a scattered religion and sometimes an ethnicity. There was no single banner under which they could rally support from the rest of the world.

Israel became that banner for support, as well as a place all could go to live if they wanted. In a way, Israel is a fundraising symbol.

So even as a Goy I get it.

Israel was a terrible idea to re-found. But the Jews of the world need Israel for survival of their people.

Alt history: Without Israel, Jews would probably be an increasingly diluted peoples around the world and would be kind of like how gypsies are seen as a racial group. And they would be subject to persecution as small groups and individuals.

And since Jews are regarded as they are by Islam, it becomes expedient to surround them and constantly maintain the pressure of terrorism. So Gaza situations are unavoidable.

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The Argument For Zionism

by ,ndo, Certifiable!, Friday, November 10, 2023, 17:56 (22 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton

How are Jews regarded by Islam? My understanding is that both being monotheistic religions, they gang up together on the polytheistic religion of Christianity.

The Argument For Zionism

by FSK, Friday, November 10, 2023, 18:47 (22 days ago) @ ,ndo

Islam is very clear that Mohammed told them to kill all the Jews.

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Polytheistic?

by Cornpop Sutton ⌂, A bad bad dude who makes good shine., Friday, November 10, 2023, 20:12 (22 days ago) @ ,ndo

Are the Muslims actually Cylons resisting the polytheist 12 Tribes of Caprica?

I assume the "polytheistic" is a reference to the Trinity. Right? (I never heard that stated.)

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Polytheistic?

by ,ndo, Certifiable!, Saturday, November 11, 2023, 04:16 (21 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton

yes in the eyes of Judaists and Islamists the Trinity is multiple gods

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Comment on Bertrand Russell's thoughts and conclusion

by Cornpop Sutton ⌂, A bad bad dude who makes good shine., Wednesday, November 08, 2023, 14:57 (24 days ago) @ ,ndo

Justice requires that the first step towards a settlement must be an Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied in June, 1967.

Yes BUT.

I believe given the rhetoric from countries like Iran and Hezbollah, such a give-back would result in future losses of even more land. Eventually sovereign Israel would be physically squeezed into a pocket like Gaza is now.

Israel requires buffer zones that they must maintain by force.

Conclusion (mine):

I'm not a Zionist. But Israel is needed, by Israel.

It is what it is, said every obnoxious authority figure ever.

Comment on Bertrand Russell's thoughts and conclusion

by FSK, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 12:22 (23 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton

Withdrawing from Gaza turned out to be a disaster. I don't see Israel making the same mistake again.

Comment on Bertrand Russell's thoughts and conclusion

by JoFrance, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 20:13 (23 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton
edited by JoFrance, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 20:17

That area will never be peaceful. Israel is there to stay and the Palestinians need to accept that if they ever want to live in peace. If you look at the history of that area, what a mess.

https://www.un.org/unispal/history/

Their best chance at any kind of peace and co-existence is a two-state solution. The Hamas government has to go first, though. There are no winners even in that, but there is tolerance. Its a first step.

No Peace Until Genocide

by FSK, Thursday, November 09, 2023, 23:23 (22 days ago) @ JoFrance

The only way there will be peace is when one side genocides the other. If Hamas had the military power to beat the IDF, you have no doubt they would do it. If Syria/Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon thought they would win a war, you have no doubt they would do it.

Why should Israel extend to their enemies a courtesy that their enemies would not extend to them?

Another advantage of wiping out Gaza is that the other Arab countries would need to find a new group of useful idiot cannon fodder to use in their fight with Israel.

Killing Hamas and leaving the rest of them alive just won't work. They'll just elect new radical anti-Jew hate leaders the second Israel leaves. If Israel doesn't leave, they're going to be taking casualties from snipers and IEDs.

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I love how genocide = peace

by ,ndo, Certifiable!, Friday, November 10, 2023, 17:48 (22 days ago) @ FSK

You're inhuman, FSK

I love how genocide = peace

by FSK, Friday, November 10, 2023, 18:47 (22 days ago) @ ,ndo

No, the rational response for dealing with people who want to genocide you, and can't possibly be reeducated, is to genocide them first.

Letting the war drag out while they "minimize civilian casualties" just creates daily negative press for Israel. If they did a 100% kill of Gaza, it would be negative press once, and then it would be over.

I've come to the unfortunately conclusion that some groups just can't be treated by Western standards of justice. That just invites them to exploit it as a weakness.

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Logic is inhuman

by Cornpop Sutton ⌂, A bad bad dude who makes good shine., Friday, November 10, 2023, 19:54 (22 days ago) @ ,ndo

FSK's recommendation is where the exercise of pure logic leads.

I do not personally agree with FSK's advice because doing so (exterminating all of Gaza) will paint a target on the back of every Jew everywhere on Earth except perhaps Antarctica, maybe. It will be a matter of winning a major battle but losing a war for all time. (IMO)

I doubt that FSK is a sociopath because if he were he would not have stayed around on this forum with the relatively moderate standards we have for right conduct.

Logic is inhuman

by FSK, Friday, November 10, 2023, 20:55 (21 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton
edited by FSK, Friday, November 10, 2023, 21:03

I'm also taking the extreme position just to see the reaction, since I never see this seriously suggested anywhere, even though it's mainstream for Muslims to call for a genocide of Israel.

So far I haven't seen any convincing counter-arguments other than "Israel will suffer blowback", which is pretty weak. Open violence against non-Israel Jews is a symptom of general lawlessness in most Western countries.

No Peace Until Genocide

by JoFrance, Friday, November 10, 2023, 18:49 (22 days ago) @ FSK

If Israel genocided Gaza, they would face severe retaliation at home and around the world. There would still be no peace for them. When Israel gets rid of Hamas, they plan to control Gaza for an indefinite period.

"Netanyahu told ABC News that Gaza, which Israel captured along with the West Bank and east Jerusalem in the 1967 Mideast war, should be governed by "those who don’t want to continue the way of Hamas."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/israel-hamas/2023/11/07/netanyahu-israel-plans-to-control-gaza-after-hamas-war-ends/71486260007/

They really have no choice but to control Gaza.

No Peace Until Genocide

by FSK, Friday, November 10, 2023, 19:00 (22 days ago) @ JoFrance

An occupation of Gaza is going to be a deathtrap for the IDF. They're going to be taking continual casualties from snipers and IEDs. The entire population has been educated since birth to blame Israel and Jews for all of their problems.

Even if Israel decides to control the schools (and I bet they won't), you'll still have parents teaching their children to hate Jews.

I know that they would take blowback for wiping out Gaza. It's a weakness in Western standards of justice that it isn't seen as a valid option. This is a civilization-destroying mistake Western countries are making.

They Just See The IDF Is Going To Win

by FSK, Saturday, November 11, 2023, 23:03 (20 days ago) @ JoFrance

They see that the IDF is going to win, so they're just saying what they think the IDF wants to hear. Most of them probably would still kill Jews if given the opportunity.

Although it should have been obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that the IDF would win a ground invasion of Gaza. I see many reports on pro-Palestinian news sites that the war is going great and the IDF is being slaughtered. Being in denial of reality like that is one of the reasons the IDF wins so easily. (In previous wars when the IDF fought multiple countries simultaneously, they all lied to each other and said they were winning when they in fact had been decimated.)

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No Peace Until Jesus Returns

by Cornpop Sutton ⌂, A bad bad dude who makes good shine., Friday, November 10, 2023, 19:57 (22 days ago) @ FSK
edited by Cornpop Sutton, Friday, November 10, 2023, 20:05

Actually. According to the bible.

Who will lovingly knock heads together.

Every bit of this is pretty much all Biblical, right down to the proximity of Russia (inherent in the proxy Iran and other BRIC aligned countries).

You can discount belief in end times prophecy as irrational or unquantifiable but the coincidences keep piling up...

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No Peace Until Jesus Returns

by ,ndo, Certifiable!, Saturday, November 11, 2023, 05:30 (21 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton

You can discount belief in end times prophecy as irrational or unquantifiable but the coincidences keep piling up...

I would read very little into that. Lots of people are attempting to bring the end times on, by creating the conditions that they believe will bring it on. So IMHO observing various "preconditions" for end times is no proof whatsoever that end times are on their way. If end times ever come, it will be at a time other than when man chooses.

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No Peace Until Jesus Returns

by Cornpop Sutton ⌂, A bad bad dude who makes good shine., Saturday, November 11, 2023, 14:54 (21 days ago) @ ,ndo
edited by Cornpop Sutton, Saturday, November 11, 2023, 17:02

Dude, I basically said that. It's a string of coincidences. I find it fascinating that so much eschatology lines up with current affairs. It's unprovable until it happens.

Personally I don't believe this is the time.

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Comment on Bertrand Russell's thoughts and conclusion

by ,ndo, Certifiable!, Friday, November 10, 2023, 18:15 (22 days ago) @ Cornpop Sutton

I don't agree with all that Russell says either but I do agree that today eliminating the State of Israel as a state is not really feasible and that there does need to be an amount of windback.

I think the most just approach is to declare the 1947 UN Partition Plan for Palestine a partial failure and to redraw it. Define the borders of two states of Palestine and Israel and have them both fully sovereign (the Plan did not accord full sovereignty to Palestine). Then, legally they would stop interfering with each other, just as today do other states even when they feel some hostility to their neighbour. Give assistance to people living in the "wrong" state to move to the other one.

If this is done, everyone can declare publicly that mistakes were made in good faith and that we can now put them behind us.

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