Thoughts about the Sanctimony of Mike Pence, Mitt R. and other never Trumpers

I think anyone of faith, and even one heck of a lot of agnostics, can consider Trump's narrow survival from that bullet a stunning miracle.

Then consider the oh-so-platitudinous and haughty dismissal of Trump by specifically Mitt Romney and Mike Pence, both wearing their "faith" on their sleeves and constantly referring to the chaos and low character of Donald Trump.

In an evangelical Christian context one can see Trump as quite literally hand picked by God to lead the country... and voters are agreeing on both sides of the aisle.

This actually removed any objection a hard line Christian would have to Trump due to his sordid past. Even if not miraculous and just coincidence, Trump's close call can't be ignored.

In an alt-universe a bullet probably wouldn't have spared either of the jive turkey RINOs. They belong in the "random death" deadpool in a similar circumstance.

God would have shrugged and said "yeah, sure, why not, f*** those guys, they don't speak for me."

Fuck both those guys. I just love the quisling never Trumpers being pushed down in the shit.

It should be obvious to any Republican that a Trump 2nd term is better than Biden and whoever is pulling his strings.

I thought Pence received unfair hate for Jan 6. A lot of people wanted him to toss the disputed electoral votes. If the VP had the power to unilaterally toss electoral votes, an incumbent would never lose. If Pence tried that, Congress would have voted him down and he would have lost. All the Democrats and some of the Republicans were voting to certify, enough to get a majority in both houses.

I don't hate Pence at all for that episode.

There was so much "fog of war" in January 2020 that it was not apparent what procedurally should be done, even if the election had indeed been thrown (which it was.) People that hate Pence over that situation basically want a dictatorship when it suits their interests.

I'd rather give Trump the mandate of a dictatorship :-D :-D :-D - different situation.

The deep state in 2020 had rigged an irreconcilable paradox - due to the timing demanded for the presidential election results to be realized in a choice, there was no way to not let the fraud pass muster.

No, I think Pence is a total dickhead for his smarmy recent commentary about what a morally lacking man Trump is. Fucking asshole.

The election system was designed assuming there are no bad actors.

In our court system, a complex trial will usually take years. They only had a month from vote certification to electoral college voting. That isn't enough time.

The courts just punted, tossing out Trump's lawsuits on procedural grounds rather than evaluating the evidence. Democrats were using this to say "See! The claims of fraud were wrong and frivolous!"

Some people tried to investigate the fraud after Jan 6, but they were blocked by Democrat voting officials at every turn.

Some of the fraud claims were obviously stupid. Some were interesting. At no time did both sides get together, impartially review the evidence, and give a refutation for why each of the fraud claims were wrong.

I saw one news article saying "Claims of election fraud are wrong!", and other citing that news article as proof there was no fraud. I never saw a detailed analysis of any of the fraud claims and an explanation of why they were wrong. It was just people getting hysterical whenever the issue came up.

Election fraud claims were banned from discussion on the mainstream media and even on social media. Most people would see that as evidence of a coverup, rather than "preventing the sharing of harmful misinformation". Election fraud claims wouldn't be misinformation if there was somewhere a detailed explanation of what happened and why it wasn't fraud.

As far as I know, no claims have been tested before a judge. Every case has been dismissed for lack of standing or for laches.

I would happily read any decision which dealt with these claims.

The big one brought by the states stunned me. How the states have no standing to complain about a process in which they are participants and by the outcome of which they are affected is beyond me. Thomas and/or Alito, I forget which one decided lack of standing, should be embarrassed and forever haunted.

It wasn't a question of tossing them but of sending them back to the respective states for an "are you sure". That would have been the objectively neutral thing to do. Pence's claim that he had no authority to do it is what did him in. He deserves worse than he got.

If Pence tried to do what you said, members of Congress would have objected. They would have held a vote and Pence would have lost.

Article 2 Section 1

The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted.

There is nothing in that text to suggest that the Legislative Branch has any authority to do anything, save be present as witness to the counting.

The count is entirely under the control of the president of the Senate, the vice president of the nation.

in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives

This clause is what gives Congress the ability to vote and resolve any disputes. If the Vice President has the authority to toss a vote and ask the state legislature, then he can unilaterally undo the electoral college vote as long as the state legislature agrees with him.

There also is the likelihood of an immediate challenge to the Supreme Court if the Vice President if he tried this. Someone tried suing over it, but the Supreme Court said "We won't rule on this unless it actually happens."

in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives

This clause is what gives Congress the ability to vote and resolve any disputes.

If I look hard enough I can see your interpretation. However, "presence" is such a weak word that if the framers had intended any sort of authority, they would have used a stronger word.

The very next clause says

The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors

"May determine" is much stronger than "in the presence of".

Perhaps "in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, which may resolve any disputes"? Except that the president of the Senate already has authority over the counting. So I don't think the witnesses have any authority.

If the Vice President has the authority you say, what prevents Harris from tossing the electoral vote in all the states Trump wins? If there's a Democrat-controlled legislature in that state, they can swap the vote and declare Biden the winner.

That's why the VP wasn't intended to have that authority.

When there are disputes in a legislative body, it usually is resolved by voting. If Congress has no role in the vote count, then it would say "The VP counts the votes by himself in his office and then announces the winner."

If the Vice President has the authority you say, what prevents Harris from tossing the electoral vote in all the states Trump wins?

That's a strawman. We were talking about disputed electoral college votes and asking the respective states for confirmation of the votes being for the one candidate or the other. That is a completely different thing to unilaterally changing the wrong vote to the right vote.

If Congress has no role in the vote count, then it would say "The VP counts the votes by himself in his office and then announces the winner."

But Congress does have a role: to bear witness to the counting, to give confidence to the public that the declared result was true and accurate.

Miracle stuff. Little angels fluttering around nearby, being all gay and shit. :-D

https://x.com/i/status/1813321215206928621

Trump turns his head just a little.... "snick!"

It was a miracle that Trump survived the assassination attempt. The hand of God protected him because Trump has a great purpose yet to be fulfilled. Did you see the flag behind him before he was shot? It got tangled up in the wind. Some people think it looks like an angel.

https://media.128ducks.com/file_store/thumb/cf35de940e5662914739acf41aced681f5be28fc099bdba0498cb8c95f3647e0.gif

Pence could have delayed the certification of states that had issues for a couple of days and let them address their problems. It was within his authority, but he lacked the courage do it. The 2020 election had a lot of problems in key states. It should have been addressed at that time. Instead, coordinated election fraud in the 2020 election of all kinds has been exposed over the last four years with no chance of accountability for those that did it because Pence certified the election.

Pence disgusts me and ditto for Mitt Romney and all the other never Trumpers. They are worse than Democrats because they pretend to be Republicans but are actually just uniparty swamp creatures.

I'm not a Constitutional scholar. I only know the broad outlines of the fundamental law.

Therefore it's still not clear to me that Pence could have done something effectively, or not.

I tend to go with FSK's opinion that the framers of the constitution didn't intend for the VP to have that level of decision making authority because it introduces the paradox that he cited that any president could stay in power indefinitely by stalling or modifying the electoral counts.

I wish anyone screaming that Pence "should have done something" would just consider that concept. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're trivializing a very deep interpretation issue.

But that's my gut and I may/probably be wrong. Goddamnit, isn't there anyone in power who can just decide this and do the right thing? :-D

I also don't trust the opinion on this matter of anyone who doesn't have specific credentials. This has become like in 2020 when everyone was a "Facebook Authorized Vaccine Authority".

No slam intended - you're clearly passionate about the topic - I just know what the boundaries of my own judgement are.

Pence could have questioned the electoral votes from certain states. That authority for the VP was election law since 1887 until the Congress amended it in 2022 as a result of what happened in the 2020 election. All Pence needed in 2020 was an objection to the electoral votes from one Senator and one House member in Congress. That would have been easy to get for Pence.

In 2022, Congress changed the roll of the VP in electoral vote counting to a ceremonial act. Here's a brief article about the new legislation.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/congress-approves-new-election-certification-rules-in-response-to-jan-6

So, he could have done it and should have tried. It might not have worked but people would have appreciated that he tried and fought for election integrity. The Jan 6 people were there to hopefully influence his decision. The swing states all had significant voter fraud problems that should have been corrected or their electors would not be counted.

Everyone has their own take on what Pence did but it bothers me that he didn't question anything and certified the vote. People had concerns but it didn't matter.

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P.A.G.A.N. - People Against Goodness And Normalcy

Thoughts about the Sanctimony of Mike Pence, Mitt R. and other never Trumpers (Public Board)